Does it matter where I worship? The very fact that there are 127 church listings covering almost 3 full yellow pages in my local phone book would suggest that most folks believe that it matters where (and probably how) we worship...
I am assuming, of course, that the differences between these 127 churches lie in what they 'do' in their sanctuaries during their 'church service'... for the moment, let's make that assumption. (I happen to believe, sadly, that that's exactly where most of the differences lie...)
For instance, if I polled the 127 churches on their beliefs, I feel confident that the vast majority would respond in the affirmative to the following questions:
- do you believe in God?
- do you believe Jesus is His only Son?
- do you believe in the miraculous virgin birth?
- do you believe Jesus actually lived on earth and died on the cross for your sins?
- do you believe He rose on the third day and now sits at God's right hand in Heaven?
So, what is it then that divides us? our various stances on Baptism? I gotta say, speaking honestly, that the same vast majority who answered the previous 5 questions in the affirmative would also say they believe in baptism... some will quibble over the reasons for and immediacy of the baptism act, but I would say most believe that baptism plays a central role in the salvation experience...
so, what divides us? I would say that 99% of what divides us surrounds our "building-centered" activities... do we interact with each other in our worship, or do we sit and digest what one man has to say? do we have two services, or do we add a balcony? do we use instruments or sing a capella (in the chapel style)? is 'high worship' more acceptable than a more casual approach? what songs should we sing? how should we dress? who is the pastor? who leads the youth program?
If you don't believe these are reasons why there are literally 127 different church buildings in my town of 11,000, please enlighten me!
OK, here is where I am going. I know there are many reasons why I choose to worship where I worship... I realize you have strong feelings about worshipping where you worship... some would count it a blessing that we have so many choices...
(incidentally, I am not sure it is such a blessing to have 127 choices in my little town to choose from. And I'm quite certain that our allergy to cooperating with each other does not jive with all the "Unity" language Jesus employed in His 3-year preaching-and-teaching-and-living-and-loving tour...)
Every time I consider this subject, I keep hearing the words of Jesus when He responds to the Samaritan woman at the well...
"Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem... a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks."
So, if I were to 'shop' for a church, what criterion might I consider? Here are some I have heard:
- a strong youth program
- a vibrant outreach program
- a great preacher/pastor
- good facilities: gym, daycare, etc
- a good number of young married couples
According to Jesus' words in John 4, I might do well to find a church whose worshippers worship in spirit and in truth... THAT'S where I want to be! THAT'S the group I want to gather with!
So, in answer to my own question.... yeah, I'd say it matters where I worship!
May I encourage you to try using Jesus' measuring stick to judge whether you are worshipping 'at the right place'? Look around next time you are worshipping on Sunday... do you feel His Presence? Are you (and those around you) worshipping The Spirit-God in the way He prescribes: in spirit and in truth?
At the end of the day (to put Jesus' words in today's terms):
"the day is coming and is now here when it does not matter where you worship.... you can worship in a cathedral or in a canyon; you can worship on a beach or in a synagogue; you can gather on a mountain or in a sanctuary; with hands raised or stuffed in pockets, with faces upturned or heads bowed... the 'where' will not matter! The 'in spirit and truth' part matters..."
I suspect if we concentrated on that one 'feature' of our worship, we would have less time and energy to worry about all the differences...
oh, well, I can dream...
God Bless!
8 comments:
It makes a tremendous difference what one belives. As you referred to by Jesus, truth and spirit are the keys! Truth is vital and that's where the divisions occur. For instance,you use baptism where many believe in it but the purpose and truth are the difference between life and death. Just ask Paul when he encountered the 12 men who had been baptized into the baptism of John (Acts 19). They had to be baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. It matters deeply what one believes and anything does not go in worship. If we would read carefully I Cor. 14, it made a world of difference on what goes on in the worship. We reveal our knowledge of God in the way we approach Him in our worship!
Thank you for posting your comment...
I agree that it matters 'what one believes'...(see the 5 questions in the original post) my comments were intended to address 'how' we worship. and the more I study the Bible, the more I am convinced we have 'attached' our own 'truths' (much as the Pharisees did) to the how-to of worship.
The point Jesus was making to the Samaritan woman in John 4 was that the custom of worshipping in a temple or on a mountain were ancillary to the act of worshipping God. The 'place' simply did not matter... I believe we can infer that Jesus feels similarly about any other 'thing' we may allow to interfere with worshipping Him in spirit and truth.
If we are not careful, we end up with a convoluted clergy/laity 'worship system' which teaches and binds denominational liturgy and man-made 'form' on its adherants as "truth"... and, that anyone else who 'does it differently' must be wrong.
So, our divisions typically occur because we cannot handle the fact that the Bible says so little about the actual 'how-to' of worship... so we are left with a very open command (to worship in spirit and in truth) while craving more of an instruction manual.
The 'truth' in the 'worship Him in spirit and in truth' should not be interpreted as worship style - yours is better than mine, or mine is better than yours - if so, whose hermeneutic is better?
I Corinthians 14 has been used so thoroughly out of context for my entire life... Certainly we must understand that Paul is addressing some specific problems in the church at Corinth; if we take every passage which addresses specific cultural and local issues and assume they comprise the instruction manual (the truth) for how we are to worship, our women had better be silent and have their heads covered, to name just a couple of examples.
God Bless!
I love good discussion, because it means we are growing. So.....I don't believe Tim's comments were stating "It doesn't matter what you believe". I completely understand what you are saying that it does matter...but my question is "To what extreme do you take it?" You made the comment about John's baptism in Acts 19. Where was Christ in John's baptism? Were they obeying the gospel? NO, the gospel wasn't finished yet as John was baptizing. He was baptizing unto repentance, VERSUS baptizing into Christ. Take for instance the controversial discussion of baptism. I ask myself, "Is it really that important to know at what point someone becomes saved?" (I am asking this for healthy discussion, not to cause strife or confusion.) I find that generally most all "churches" in the area disagree on the specific point someone is saved. The point they have ran through the salvation ribbon at the end of the race and have reached "forgiveness of sins". Some say it is when you believe. Some say it is when you believe and confess. Others say it is when you Repent and Believe. Some say Believe, Repent, Baptized. Etc. Is that important? Can anyone really determine at what POINT someone is saved? Notice though in all these examples...Christ is the center correct? I know the bible has many verses regarding salvation...and we can print all these on a piece of paper and say "Do all these and you will be saved." (By the way I did that once and it was a long list) Let me ask, How long does it take to be baptized? 10 minutes...it is black and white, we all see it and we know YES/NO they were baptized. What about repentance? Can we say "Look, they have repented." "See there, they are changed to the new man." In certain individuals, I think yes. But others, perhaps we don't know. My point I am making is that do we need quarrel and argue about WHEN someone is saved versus the PRINCIPLE message.... Jesus Christ was beaten on the cross, because I deserved it. He held off the 10 Legions of angels, because he had to for my forgiveness in God's eyes. The message in the heart of the individual is what does the "healing"...everything else ..."Believe, Repenting, Confessing, Baptism, Endurance, Faithfulness, Communion, Singing, Praying, Fasting, Reading, Studying, Leading, etc." will follow. IT IS THE MESSAGE AND HOW THE HEART ACCEPTS IT (Parable of the sower right? The seed is the word and where it lands is the heart). The bible says, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved." BUT, I have seen many believe and are baptized but are not born again. Many that have "repented" but never changed their lifestyle. Baptized/Believers that have made their "confession" prior to baptism, but do not confess Christ to the world. Where is the problem? Psa 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide. We put too much confidence in our checklist than we do the AWESOME POWER OF JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.
The problem is where the heart of each individual is and whether or not the focus is certain THINGS or God/Christ magnified, us brought low. NOW, I know I got off in a tangent but the point I am making is the heart/purpose/meaning behind the THINGS should be the focus. You made that "it makes a world of difference on what goes on in the worship". I agree, if it isn't Christ centered, then it is wrong. That simple. I began down the road of analyzing 1 Cor. 14 just as you have. However, behind each of these things ARE PRINCIPLES. Why interpret tongues? So the church can understand and grow. Why speak 1 by 1? Because it is utter chaos if they don't. Why women must be silent? Because Eve was deceived, she was punished with submission to her husband Adam... (1 Tim. 2) My question that I asked at the beginning is "How far do we take it?" When I began down the road of analyzing every thing I began to lose focus on Christ. Now it is still a GRAY area for me to know "Where you draw the line...and say...wrong is wrong." For that I just remind myself, CHRIST CENTERED IS RIGHT, EVERYTHING ELSE IS WRONG.
What do you think?
The comments posted make us think. We have too many legalists that check off a list, they have done this or that and believe they are saved. It really is a system of works or law, which in turn will keep one separated from Christ.
The problem we have encountered is the lack of a sincere love and seeking the teachings of the Lord. The Bible is no long sought in purity, but manipulated to the likings of many. Verses are pulled out of context and we end up with ideas that just aren't founded, but we make them sound like they are. It seems many are going the way that whatever they 'feel' is right is okay to do as long as they love the Lord. Things get more touchy/feely than truth toward our Lord.
The reason for referring to I Cor. 14 was to show that at the church at Corinth, their assemblies had become a mess of chaos and whatever one feels and there needed to be some structure and peace. That was what Paul was trying to bring back. They were focusing on the 'gifts' rather than the purpose they were given. (Never for self!) That's why he ended that things to be done properly and in an orderly manner
(14:40). (Just a quick note: the word "orderly/decently" depending on what version, is comparing the contrast to disorder and oral testimony!)It literally means "a well formed manner". Not anything goes! I do agree that we have made our own laws for worship that is not proper either.
As far as when one is saved, it takes an honest look at Scripture at what the apostles taught when they taught someone is saved. Even Jesus tied salvation upon belief and baptism. But the real question is what happens when one is being baptized? Do they have a genuine faith that Jesus is the Christ, their Savior? Paul said their faith is what will determine their being raised up with Christ or not! (Col. 2:12)For many years, baptism has been taught as an act of religion when in reality it is a faith response to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The Christ, our Lord must be taught first, not baptism! Baptism for many has been reduced as one of those 'check offs' that was performed, rather than faith in the promise of God through His Son. That is why so many are baptized and nothing changes! There was little to no faith in the death of Jesus. They may have repented and confessed, only to turn back to their natural ways of life because that's all they know. Romans 6 shows this extensively. They do not see baptism as entering Christ and His death! Paul said he was told to call on the name of the Lord at baptism, at that point his sins were wiped away (Acts 22:16). There can be no uniting with Christ without repentance and confession! Repentance and confession is faith in the heart looking to Christ, a new direction. But they aren't in Christ yet! They aren't saved. Baptism is responding to His death, burial and resurrection so we can raise to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4) because we have come into His life. We have forgotten (or don't know) what the gospel message is and how to go about it. Which leads us full circle to why there is so much confusion on worship. Sorry for rambling on.
Worship is heart, all heart toward the name of the Lord! It's not orchestrated by moods or special events but a sincere desire to honor with an acceptable service with reverence and awe (Heb. 12:28)from the heart. It is a drawing near through the death of Jesus, making certain it's all about Him, not us! That takes us to make certain we ask whatever we do, does it please Him, create a reverence and awe for Him and build up the body? We need some serious OT study of how they approached God at the temple in their worship. It will give us insight as to how we might need to think today. (It shows us examples only (Rom. 15:4). The religious world is taking reverence and awe out of worship, interjecting almost anything as long as it makes one feel good. That's not God centered. That is "us" centered. Others take worship to 'duties' which is the other extreme and just as harmful. We need to be seeking God's insight, what God is really looking for and our purpose in His presence. it is a matter of what pleases Him, not us! I would kindly like to add, the Holy Spirit bears self control in the life of true believers! I appreciate your time and kindness. I pray I have not been offensive.
Wow! a couple great posts! thank you both for taking time to comment... they are well-considered and thought out...
It seems the three of us are making, essentially, the same point: that God wants us to worship Him from the heart... that He wants to own our heart....
and, for the record (as if it's important what i think), I believe baptism is essential to the salvation experience. But no more so than confession or repentance, for example...
my religious upbringing was steeped in tradition that was passed off as 'scripturally right' to the exclusion of all other traditions... so please understand where I come from.
I believe we must give weight to all scripture (II Tim 3:16)... so I certainly believe that the Corinthian letters have import to us today. It is indeed a cautionary tale about what can happen if everyone wants to worship their own way (selfishly) without regard to fellow worshippers... it is quite likely that some of the worshippers Paul were correcting were trying very hard to do so in the right way... but Paul corrected the chaos by giving instruction about all the 'noise' which was being caused.
My problem is this: our fellowship has historically used that passage to 'proof out' our very sterile, unemotional, lifeless, traditional, meaningless, spirit-less worship (which, by the way, has a lot more 'connection' to denominationalism and its liturgy than basis in Scripture). So, in a manner of speaking, we erred toward the 'truth' part of the John 4 command at the expense of the 'spirit' part... what's worse, we further used the Corinthian correction as license to mandate and bind the resulting staid and lifeless 'worship' ritual on others... we criticized anyone who 'allowed' people to clap or raise hands... all in the name of 'decently and in order'!
So forgive me if I yearn for us to worship His Spirit in spirit... we are not anywhere near (in my experience) 'overdoing' it... so the Corinthian letter truly has little application to me...
but when and if it ever needs to be applied, rest assured it is such a part of me (almost at a DNA level) that I will be able to remember it and correct my fellow worshipper... frankly, I hope I will one day need to refer to it... for I believe that may indicate we are at least free from the decades-old prison which WE created from overapplying or prematurely applying the Corinthian letters to our assembly worship...
again, thanks for your comments!
God Bless!
Sorry, I forgot one important statement in my last posting. If a person is not in Christ as defined by the Lord, being buried and raise in baptism as defined in Scripture, it does not matter how anyone worships because they do not belong to the Lord! I know some may find that judgmental, but being in Christ is the real and only issue! Everything we do and think revolve around that. Paul was bringing the Corinthians back to the cross and their relationship of being in Christ. Thank you again!
We need to very carefully and consider Heb. 12:18-29 in light of our worship. Seeing the kind of God we are in fellowship with should make us tremble at being in His presence. Sometimes we confuse 'spirit' with emotions, which the religious world has always done. Their emotions are their proving ground for the Lord. We, however, have done the opposite and made our worship very nonresponsive. In some cases,our worship is empty by robbing people of their joy in Christ. I want to come back to what I said earlier: if one isn't in Christ, it makes no difference in their worship because they are not part of Jesus. I am sorry if that comes across as harsh because I do not mean it that way. One is either in Christ or outside. There is only one way in...baptism "INTO CHRIST JESUS." (Rom. 6 teaches in depth) As a result, the joy one finds in forgiveness leads them to expressing that because the heart has been cleansed by faith. That results in a reverence and deep respect and love for the Lord. Instead of being given what we deserve, we have been shown mercy, which leads to true worship. Too many are putting emphasis on the hands and the likings, while others go to the other extreme to combat the deadness of many assemblies. The hands raised, clapping, etc. are what people use to say they are alive. The Lord says we are alive in Him because He gave us of His Spirit. That means there is nothing to prove or show. It is simply humble, reverence for the Lord, wanting to please Him in all respects. That's why the inspired apostles had to write and teach us what we have in Jesus because emotions prove nothing! We have emotions, but our emotions we not given to us to control us or prove anything. That's where many are going wrong in their worship. There is nothing wrong with shed tears for singing about the wonderful love of Jesus. There is nothing wrong with tears offered in prayers because we realize our weaknesses and His strength and He would have us anyway. Those can come from an outpouring of the heart. What we must focus on is doing the will of God from the heart, knowing He is our God, our Father, our Savior. Too many are focusing now on externals to motive and move us. Stories are planned, moving videos are played and all in the name of the Lord. We must be careful not to take things too far beyond what the Lord wants so that things become exciting or entertaining for us. My excitement is because of the death of Jesus for me. Not because someone can move me with some song sung in solo, or someone hollering out, or clapping, but a sincere heart thanks that is humble before the Maker, knowing the gift we have been blessed with. And that, my friend, cannot be manipulated or excited by anyone!
The church needs to get back to real, sincere preaching and teaching of the word. Not traditions, not arguing to make one look better while putting down others, but honestly dealing with God's word, to produce the kind heart God wants. We are becoming less Bible centered and more entertaining, people centered, which produces fleshly people, thinking they are spiritual. Wow! I can't believe I said all that. Jesus said it best, "Few there will be who find it!" I love the Lord and love His people, those who have been immersed into His holy name for the forgiveness of all their sins!
again, thank you for another well-thought-out comment...
You and I are not going to agree on the perfect 'method' or 'posture' with regard to our worship.
I respect your approach to worship, which sounds very sincere and calm and reverent and restrained (I say none of this judgmentally or to criticize, so forgive me if I have misunderstood).
I also respect my brother's right to 'lift holy hands' and 'cry out', both of which are mentioned as proper 'worship responses' in the Bible.
Since you mention that you believe 'there is nothing wrong with tears' (an emotional response - and a quiet one), then I would hope you would also be OK with a different emotional response from a worshipper... perhaps a less quiet one...
I am inferring (again, forgive me if I am mistaken) that your worship preference is a more 'high church' approach with a more reverent feel. I imagine it might lean more toward hymns than 'praise songs', perhaps more toward scripture reading than testimony... and that's perfectly cool.
But I certainly expect the same respect to be afforded me if I prefer a more casual worship approach (every bit as heartfelt and every bit as God-glorifying) which leans more toward praise songs and testimony...
...the reason we must be careful as we apply specific (and sometimes very cultural) corretions to our worship is that God did NOT want us to practice a religion (specific reference to the OT Jewish religious 'practices'). He wanted to bring us into covenant relationship with Him through His son Jesus.
The way we worship Him is in spirit and in truth... and, frankly, there are many ways to do that.
Personally, I prefer a cappella singing and a more traditional and restrained and 'controlled' environent (probably similar to you)... but I refuse to bind that on anyone else, because God simply (and wisely) leaves much of that to the worshipper.
God Bless!
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